#chatlog from 2023-01-26 Early Tools for Thought
00:25:24 David Eddy (Legacy Software, Ltd.): Since I’ve just stumbled across this… MarkA… what’s the Swarthmore connection with hypertext?
00:25:27 Jess Martin: wonderful to see all of you here - lots of familiar names
00:26:24 Peter Wasilko: Web Squirrel rocked!
00:26:52 Barton Rhodes: Emacs org-mode ogs unite!
00:27:49 Boris Mann: Hey Frode!
00:27:56 Jess Martin: Hi Frode!
00:27:56 FJK: It’s Spacemacs now :-)
00:28:29 Jess Martin: cue Gordon’s “All you need is links”: https://subconscious.substack.com/p/all-you-need-is-links
00:28:52 David Eddy (Legacy Software, Ltd.): re: links… yes… must remember “dynamic” links… composed on the fly.
00:30:00 Jess Martin: link to ACM Hypertext ‘87 proceedings: https://dl.acm.org/doi/proceedings/10.1145/317426
00:30:01 Alan Laidlaw: Love this framing. I hope Mark Anderson is here.
00:30:24 Jess Martin: @Jack: chats will be saved, yep!
00:32:12 Peter Wasilko: Also see the unpublished “A Reference Selector”
00:33:53 Jess Martin: so many great references here - loving the synthesis of ideas, philosophy, technology, politics, history, etc
00:34:00 FJK: The 1st book on my shelf.
00:34:20 Boris Mann: @jess we really do have to get a collaborative synthesis note space to just anchor these speakers and talks
00:34:30 Jess Martin: @boris my goodness yes
00:35:26 Boris Mann: For those that haven’t read it, I recommend Robin Berjon’s The Internet Transition https://berjon.com/internet-transition/
00:35:45 Boris Mann: Essentially, this is outlining that we need new tools of governance (which are likely supported by tools for thought)
00:36:03 Jess Martin: @Jack: yes and yes. slides, chat, and recording will be available.
00:36:09 Boris Mann: Yes, will be recorded and shared to our YouTube https://youtube.com/@toolsforthought
00:36:52 אבי: Are you sure it’s recording? On my screen I keep seeing “preparing to record”
00:37:03 Marc-Antoine Parent: I have the “recording” state
00:37:08 Jason Mesut: Says recording to me too
00:37:13 Jess Martin: constraint-based graphics still not fully adopted.
00:37:16 Boris Mann: It is recording “TO THE CLOUD”
00:37:43 Boris Mann: Supertax’s was from various CRMs that I’ve used
00:38:13 Boris Mann: SuperTAGs, of course, not TAX 🙂
00:38:53 Boris Mann: Capsule CRM -> https://capsulecrm.com/features/#section-customization
00:39:55 David Eddy (Legacy Software, Ltd.): Early hype for machine translation / NLP: (behind NYTimes paywall) - https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1954/01/08/issue.html remains to be seen if ChatGPT will improve on this 70 year old demo
00:42:24 FJK: Afternoon and Victory Garden!
00:44:26 Jess Martin: …or the much-later Trello.
00:46:24 David Eddy (Legacy Software, Ltd.): re periodic table: “A Well-Ordered Thing: Dmitrii Mendeleev & the Shadow of the Periodic Table,” Michael D. Gordin
00:48:03 David Eddy (Legacy Software, Ltd.): Yeah! IBM 3270 … 80 x 24
00:48:47 Boris Mann: @Jack — you can change that on your end
00:49:02 Boris Mann: The Zoom can be used to shrink / grow as needed
00:49:44 Jack Keen: Thanks
00:50:14 Jess Martin: @Frode: such a key principle for collab / communication - embody it in the physical world!
00:51:03 Jess Martin: someone needs to compile a “best of ACM hypertext proceedings” wiki with commentary
00:51:11 Jess Martin: maybe this talk could be used to seed
00:51:51 Chris Aldrich: VictorianWeb.org!!!
00:51:57 Tomáš Mládek: That would be amazing @Jess
00:52:27 Boris Mann: @Tomas think of everything we’re saying as an invitation 🙂 We’ll cover this at the end
00:52:56 John McDaid: “commas are technology” - the t-shirt
00:53:10 Jess Martin: A++++ would buy
00:53:33 Boris Mann: Please DO use the Q&A to park questions. I think we’re best just letting Mark roll, and we can get into these at the end
00:53:57 Jerry Michalski: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StretchText
00:54:16 Jess Martin: in addition to the comma, spaces in general were new technology. see https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scriptio_continua
00:54:49 Jess Martin: Twiner writers: https://twinery.org/
00:55:11 Eli Parra: “The link is the first significant new form of punctuation to emerge in centuries..” -Steven Berlin Johnson, Interface Culture, 1999 (Super recommended early book by an author that later went more mainstream.)
00:55:19 Boris Mann: The use of the word “publishing” to only mean academia and formal papers is interesting 🙂
00:55:23 Marc-Antoine Parent: Doesn’t Emily Short publish about twine practices?
00:55:24 Jess Martin: (folks if you’re trying to chat with everyone, not just Hosts and Panelists, make sure you change the chat drop down to “Everyone”)
00:55:45 Alan Laidlaw: Twine + ChatGPT = (or just more fantasy adventures)
00:56:37 Fidel: What's that newsletter about AI and Ethics again?
00:56:41 Jess Martin: taxonomies are a lie
00:57:05 Boris Mann: Steam Reviews have “reactji” for how people found reviews
00:57:11 Jess Martin: quotation marks, the original quote tweet.
00:57:17 Boris Mann: I bet “reactji” as an interface for link types would work
00:57:39 Marc-Antoine Parent: Still looking for newsletter, but found this book: https://hcil.umd.edu/human-centered-ai/
00:57:51 Jess Martin: links in a separate file = link as annotation?
00:58:10 John Holland: I was led to Trigg after exposure to Beck Tench’s video series that uses link types so effectively in theoretical modeling. Took me awhile to track down the paper/reference, but worth the effort for those, like me, interested in conceptual mapping.
00:59:02 Boris Mann: (One can vote up Q&A)
00:59:12 Jack Park: ? https://www.hci.international/index.php?module=newsletter&CF_op=view&CF_id=85
00:59:15 Mark Anderson: If you have Win XP licence (Grr M) here’s everything else needs to run Microcosm: https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/427048/. Almost lost to history as not one had an install code saved!
01:01:14 Marc-Antoine Parent: Recursive hypergraph :-)
01:02:17 Alan Laidlaw: If interested in human-centered AI, see The Inmates are Running the Asylum: https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-inmates-are-running-the-asylum-why-high-tech-products-drive-us-crazy-and-how-to-restore-the-sanity_alan-cooper/270323/item/2455645/?gclid=CjwKCAiA5sieBhBnEiwAR9oh2qc6n9dQcBErGYfnSKcfZ9BuLKCgBRnJAs_jBNkIxQdCL9l021naLRoCPjMQAvD_BwE#idiq=2455645&edition=1871361 to see what happens when two disciplines make one product. its not pretty.
01:05:14 David Eddy (Legacy Software, Ltd.): … but digital exists in N-Dimensional “space”
01:07:15 David Eddy (Legacy Software, Ltd.): limitless storage space does have its downside…. I have no way of actually finding what wisdom I squirreled away 5 years ago
01:07:50 Jess Martin: @david: like storing a tiny box in a giant room
01:08:21 David Eddy (Legacy Software, Ltd.): @Jes… and the ability to store MORE in smaller spaces just keeps expanding
01:08:22 Jerry Michalski: or the storing of the Ark at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark…
01:08:51 David Eddy (Legacy Software, Ltd.): @Jerry… 👍
01:09:20 Robert Brook: Thank you Mark: excellent and fun!
01:09:20 John McDaid:
01:09:21 Tomáš Mládek: Thank you!
01:09:25 Marc-Antoine Parent: Thank you!
01:09:25 David Eddy (Legacy Software, Ltd.): Yeah MarkB!!!!
01:09:25 Jess Martin: AMAZING 😍😍😍
01:09:28 Jerry Michalski: great tour! wow.
01:09:28 FJK: Thank you Mark!!!
01:09:29 Fidel:
01:09:31 Jianhui: Thanj
01:09:33 Shyam Patel: Thank you!
01:09:34 Eli Parra: 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
01:09:35 Mark Anderson:
01:09:36 Gabo: INCREDIBLE!
01:09:38 Gabo: thanks!
01:09:41 Chris Aldrich: 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
01:09:42 @nichoth: 👏
01:09:42 sid: Thank you 🙂
01:09:45 Guy: Fascinating — thank you!
01:09:48 Chris Smith: Thank you so much, Mark! Excellent summary and comments
01:09:53 clemi boubli: Wow- thank you!
01:09:55 Felix: Thanks ;)
01:09:55 Michael Gartner: 👏👏👏
01:09:55 Jack Keen: Great talk, Mark. THANKS SO MUCH!!!
01:09:56 Tomáš Mládek: :D same
01:09:59 Mike Travers: Clap clap clap
01:09:59 Bruce Gale: Wow, again.
01:10:07 Jack Park: 👍
01:10:10 Ron Webber: Thank you very much. Drinking from a firehydrant …
01:10:10 David Eddy (Legacy Software, Ltd.): @Boris… good luck with that…
01:10:26 Jerry Michalski: might we build a shared map of all this?
01:10:33 Margaret Cheatham: Thank you!
01:10:48 Ingo Frank: Thank you very much Mark for your historical overview!
01:10:54 Jack Park: +1 @ jerry
01:11:00 Chris Aldrich: I’ve got a Tools for Thought Zotero bibliography already started if folks want to add any and all papers here to it: https://www.zotero.org/groups/4676190/tools_for_thought
01:11:49 David Eddy (Legacy Software, Ltd.): I still have a working T3100 19 lb “luggable” PC. I should see if it still works.
01:11:59 אבי: @Chris Aldrich wat a great idea!
01:12:06 Jerry Michalski: Hypertext in my Brain (which will now need to be updated a lot!): https://bra.in/7j8aeb
01:12:17 David Eddy (Legacy Software, Ltd.): … my last MS-DOS v5 machine…
01:12:38 Boris Mann: Reminds me of Codex Editor https://www.patreon.com/codexeditor
01:13:13 Jess Martin: “always bet on the web”
01:13:19 Marc-Antoine Parent: Love microcosm, but too dependent on centralized computation.
01:13:25 David Eddy (Legacy Software, Ltd.): Wonderful… thanks MarkB
01:15:24 Jerry Michalski: Ann Blair, Too Much to Know: Managing Scholarly Information before the Modern Age (2010)
01:15:27 Jess Martin: Original sessions from 2021 talking about interop and open systems: https://fission.codes/blog/tools-for-thought-interchange-part-1/ and https://fission.codes/blog/tools-for-thought-interchange-part-2/
01:16:19 Jess Martin: ✋ bar conversation note-takers unite!
01:16:29 Jerry Michalski: I’ll drink to that!
01:16:32 Boris Mann: https://www.jerrysbrain.com/
01:16:33 Jess Martin: Bonnie Blair: Too Much To Know - https://www.amazon.com/Too-Much-Know-Scholarly-Information/dp/0300165390
01:16:33 Jerry Michalski: ha!
01:16:51 Jerry Michalski: https://www.jerrysbrain.com/
01:16:56 Jerry Michalski: help free me!
01:17:20 Chris Aldrich: @Jess, it’s Ann M. Blair :)
01:17:24 Jess Martin: Thomas Mallon: A Book Of One’s Own - https://www.amazon.com/Book-Ones-Own-People-Diaries/dp/0899192424
01:17:27 Alan Laidlaw: @jerry: Too Much to Know reminds me of Too Big to Know (by David Weinberger)
01:17:44 Jerry Michalski: @Alan yes, it does
01:18:01 Jess Martin: @Chris - thanks!
01:18:18 Jerry Michalski: there’s also If Only We Knew What We Know: The Transfer of Internal Knowledge and Best Practice (1998)
01:18:53 Alan Laidlaw: Lol
01:19:48 Chris Smith: YES!! Tinderbox for Mobile!!!
01:19:57 Mark Anderson: Nielsen “The Matters That Really Matter for Hypertext Usability “ at Hypertext ’89. https://doi.org/10.1145/74224.74244
01:19:59 Jess Martin: call back to 500x342 screens
01:20:28 Boris Mann: Frode I’m going to bring this up 🙂
01:20:42 Chris Smith: Someday, mobile will image on full field of view glasses 🤞
01:20:46 Tomáš Mládek: I feel like the real question is how to go beyond screens (Bret Victor’s work, etc)
01:20:47 Marc-Antoine Parent: Hear, hear!
01:20:56 Chris Aldrich: Lynne Kelly has some great material on Deep Work for oral cultures who have no screens, see: Neale, Margo, and Lynne Kelly. Songlines: The Power and Promise. 1st ed. First Knowledges, 1.0. Port Melbourne, Victoria, Australia: Thames & Hudson, 2020.
01:21:01 Alan Laidlaw: +1
01:21:52 Jerry Michalski: yay Forth!
01:21:53 Jess Martin: System 7 hoorah 🙂
01:22:02 Jack Park: forth indeed!
01:22:25 Jerry Michalski: and postfix notation in general 🙂
01:23:32 Jack Park: Tinderbox is worth owning; Mark’s book about Tinderbox seems like a must read
01:23:49 Tomáš Mládek: +1
01:23:55 Jess Martin: agree on factoring out markdown - not the real problem/solution
01:24:00 Mike Travers: Logseq is working on shifting away from Markdown (so I’ve heard) and using a graph db.
01:24:18 Marc-Antoine Parent: +1. Markdown makes it harder to have offline annotation
01:24:22 Jerry Michalski: what lingua should we franca at the file level?
01:24:44 Jess Martin: markdown could be an input/output channel for the underlying representation
01:24:56 Marc-Antoine Parent: I think we do need to think beyond text. We are missing tech way beyond the comma…
01:25:06 Marc-Antoine Parent: (Sorry: text as it exists now)
01:25:37 Mark Anderson: If interested in a flavour of what’s in Tinderbox, take a peek at aTbRef (https://atbref.com) which has been documenting the app … since 2004 (2 years after launch) (Disclaimer — I’m the author)
01:26:22 Jess Martin: @Guy: If you want to talk more about local-first, non-proprietary formats, check out the Noosphere community / protocol: https://subconscious.substack.com/p/noosphere-a-protocol-for-thought
01:26:36 Jess Martin: The discord is full of nice people who think about that kind of thing all the time!
01:26:44 Chris Smith: @Mark Anderson You’re our hero, because great software has been underutilized and even died for lack of documentation.
01:26:50 Guy: Thank you! Great answer and challenge to my question too
01:27:04 Mark Anderson: As a Tinderbox user I’d say use of link types is also held back by our (the users) having little education on what they might/can do. Why we link is worth knowing.
01:28:02 Jess Martin: @Mark Anderson: have you seen the work that Yiliu of Softspace is doing in VR for Spatial Hypertext? https://substack.soft.space/s/softspace-ar
01:28:05 Seva: @Mark Anderson, since you’re here live, thank you very much for creating and hosting aTbRef. I Use it every time I have to write some Tinderbox code. Can’t imagine doing it without it.
01:28:07 Mark Anderson: Randy rigg’s thesis:
01:28:24 Mark Anderson: @phdthesis{trigg:1983:nbath,
author = {Trigg, Randall H.},
title = {A Network-Based Approach to Text Handling for the Online Scientific Community},
school = {University of Maryland at College Park},
address = {College Park, MD, USA},
pages = {},
year = {1983},
doi = {},
url = {http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=911585},
abstract = {PhD Thesis (chapter only)},
keywords = {}}
01:28:28 Clemi Boubli: And w/brain injury knowing in advance is impossible! Point to point inefficient navigation is the order of the day🤪
01:28:31 Jack Park: As I understand it, the Tora was the original hypertext document
01:28:40 Jerry Michalski: if the Talmud is the original hypertext, is there more research from that world? I know Estee Solomon Gray did a talk about this years ago.
01:28:52 Mark Anderson: I think only Ch.4 from Trigg’s thesis ever made it to the digital world.
01:28:56 Patrick Lynch: @Mark Anderson +1 on thanks for TbRef!
01:28:58 Jerry Michalski: omg Jack, simultaneous!
01:29:37 Jack Park: Gelernter talks about it in the book The Muse in the machine
01:30:05 Jess Martin: @jack/@jerry: tradition of commentaries on old and new testament is pretty amazing. effectively, annotation layers over the original text.
01:30:34 Boris Mann: @jess what’s the software tool that we had present?
01:31:09 Chris Aldrich: There’s some good discussion of Torah annotation in Kalir, Remi H., and Antero Garcia. Annotation. The MIT Press Essential Knowledge Series. Cambridge, MA, USA: MIT Press, 2021.
01:31:17 Chris Aldrich: Chapter 3 if I recall.
01:32:17 אבי: I must say I believe these are not Torah annotations.
01:32:33 Jerry Michalski: tx, @chris. anything outside of books? like software?
01:32:50 Boris Mann: Tudor Girba http://www.tudorgirba.com/ and Glamourous Toolkit https://gtoolkit.com/
01:32:52 Jess Martin: @Peter Wasilko: Have you seen Ink and Switch’s Potluck? https://www.inkandswitch.com/potluck/
01:33:43 Marc-Antoine Parent: 👏
01:33:51 Jess Martin: Seeing Spaces 👏
01:33:52 Tomáš Mládek: ++
01:34:21 Marc-Antoine Parent: 3D thinking is very different from semantics…
01:34:23 Jess Martin: @Frode: have you read Venge’s Rainbow’s End?
01:34:33 Chris Smith: But linking information to a simulated world map is the cyberspace of William Gibson, and that is how people think (at least I do). Recall often involves traveling in mind to the place of association.
01:34:42 Jess Martin: I found that (fiction) book to be extremely provocative!!
01:34:54 Chris Smith: Thanks to MarkB for clarifying for me that we really think in 2.5D
01:35:14 Jess Martin: @Frode: highly. the story is somewhat lame, but the futurism is top notch
01:35:49 Mark Anderson: @Mark B, thanks for another great answer.
01:36:00 Boris Mann: LogSeq choked on my 50K tweets
01:36:17 Jerry Michalski: 528,665 Thoughts in my Brain right now
01:36:31 Jerry Michalski: still very usable
01:36:42 Jess Martin: human input mechanisms (fov, memory) has become the limiting factor for computers + humans
01:36:55 Jerry Michalski: this is about “zoom levels” in design, or whatever you want to call it
01:36:55 Boris Mann: Halting State, Charles Stress https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_State
01:37:07 Jess Martin: @Jerry: your brain has a really nice feature of limiting a set of thoughts to one screen.
01:37:24 Jerry Michalski: exactly, @jess. I call it “local structure”
01:37:28 FJK: Unfortunately have to leave now - thank you all VERY MUCH!
01:37:29 Jess Martin: ❤️
01:37:47 Jess Martin: ooooh “local structure” is something that’s missing from (every?) spatial canvas I’m aware of
01:37:47 Jerry Michalski: yes, local context works great
01:37:59 Jess Martin: you can use “containers” by nesting boards
01:38:00 Chris Smith: Many-node databases DO offer too many nodes to see. Which is why they must be grouped and associated with something we already know (like the world). And that means each person would place those nodes in different places, making software solutions difficult.
01:38:04 Jess Martin: but ugh it’s painful
01:38:17 Chris Aldrich: We need more work on mathematical topology and neighborhoods in these spaces.
01:38:46 Eli Parra: Just to make BIG public node spaces tangible: Visakanv’s has 220,000 threaded tweets! https://twitter.com/visakanv
01:38:55 Jerry Michalski: local structure is something the Web has, btw. I explain it by describing going from one person’s site (with its local structure) to another site. pretty quickly, your (wet) brain figures out the new site’s local structure
01:39:05 Jess Martin: Mark stands with Plato 🙂
01:39:13 Alan Laidlaw: (not sci-fi, But the essays of Montaigne are very applicable to hypertext tendencies.)
01:39:25 Chris Smith: @Jerry, the only problem is that the individual sites lack deep links to one another
01:39:50 Marc-Antoine Parent: +1 on topology. Thinking of lattices a lot these days.
01:39:52 Jerry Michalski: @chris yes, unless the site authors explicitly curate those
01:40:19 Jerry Michalski: I host two weekly calls geeking out about these topics, one on Mondays, one on Wednesdays. e me at sociate@gmail.com if you’d like to join in
01:40:26 Boris Mann: @Eli I really want to rescue Visa’s stuff from Twitter
01:40:28 Boris Mann: http://worrydream.com/TheHumaneRepresentationOfThought/note.html
01:40:53 Jess Martin: @andreas: yes, on youtube here: https://www.youtube.com/@toolsforthought
01:41:08 Jerry Michalski: also, Paul Tony and I will be co-producing a podcast that is about all this, picking up on the Tools for Thinking podcast I did last year
01:41:11 Alan Laidlaw: humane representation is brilliant. the foundational talk.
01:41:17 Jerry Michalski: Ooops, Paul Rony. DYAC!
01:41:26 Jess Martin: heh, I have a vertical monitor off to the left of my horizontal monitor
01:41:47 Boris Mann: Horizontal / vertical I guess I go those reversed
01:41:47 Guy: I’m using second monitor in portrait rotation to make notes on this talk
01:42:47 Jack Park: https://twinery.org/
01:42:50 Tomáš Mládek: same, horizontal + vertical is the way to go :)
01:43:00 Alan Laidlaw: thanks for the answers!
01:43:54 Jason Mesut: I was just trying to rotate my screen because I’ve never done it. But got too much crap on my desk. Maybe something for Feb.
01:44:02 Eli Parra: @Boris: Me too! Specially now that there’s so much excitement with Mastodon (Ivory, Elk-zone). The time feels ripe for new threading interfaces that can handle thousands, maybe even tens of thousands of threads! (I’m @elzr on Twitter)
01:44:21 Jerry Michalski: https://www.dilip.info/HT96/P79/ht96.html
01:44:29 Jerry Michalski: is Greco’s paper
01:44:36 Boris Mann: I’m @boris@toolsfortthought.rocks on Mastodon (among others…)
01:45:11 Jess Martin: the programmer priesthood
01:45:21 John McDaid: Greco paper: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/234828.234837
01:45:40 Mike Travers: Got to run to another meeting, thanks again Mark and everybody. My digital garden: http://hyperphor.com/ammdi
01:45:51 Alan Laidlaw: another group that is obsessed with these topics: https://thefutureoftext.org/
01:46:22 Chris Aldrich: I appreciate Greco’s paper in the samizdat version that Jerry shared… :)
01:46:29 Jerry Michalski: 🙂
01:46:40 Jerry Michalski: open content, baby!
01:47:32 Jess Martin: today you can make serious money renting software 😢
01:47:52 Jerry Michalski: my notes from this call (I got here 40 minutes late and have many open tabs to add): https://bra.in/4jrZB5
01:48:17 Jess Martin: See Robin Sloan’s An App can be a home-cooked meal: https://www.robinsloan.com/notes/home-cooked-app/
01:48:19 Alan Laidlaw: looking for Paul Trock on ACM. anything else I can to narrow the search?
01:48:21 Jess Martin: related to this
01:48:47 Eli Parra: @Alan: I think Steve Poltrock was meant: https://dl.acm.org/profile/81100102525
01:48:49 Chris Smith: Poltrock, I think he said
01:49:03 Alan Laidlaw: yes, enterprise wiki is hell. and yet, its a massive chokepoint for getting things done in enterprise.
01:49:05 Naupaka Zimmerman (he/him): same name, but different company
01:49:22 Alan Laidlaw: contact center wikis are even more devastating.
01:49:31 Naupaka Zimmerman (he/him): https://help.kagi.com/kagi/company/history.html
01:49:33 Jess Martin: “incentivized”
01:49:57 Jess Martin: stand on zanzibar from 1968: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_on_Zanzibar
01:49:58 Jerry Michalski: Stand on Zanzibar (1968), John Brunner
01:50:03 Jason Mesut: Thanks all. Very interesting.
01:50:04 Eli Parra: John Brunner’s Shockwave Rider is one of my favorite sci-fi novels!
01:50:08 Jerry Michalski: oh, man. can we go all day?
01:50:10 Shyam Patel: Thank you very much1
01:50:10 Jess Martin: amazing - same year as mother of all demos!
01:50:14 lane: ¿ Willl this chat be saved and posted ?
01:50:18 Chris Aldrich: https://twitter.com/anothercohen/status/1618256689588998145
01:50:24 Jess Martin: @jerry: for real! this was awesome!
01:50:36 Mark Anderson: Diane Grecco
01:50:38 Jess Martin: https://www.dianejosefowicz.com/